Thanks for the invitation.

topic posted Mon, August 2, 2004 - 11:55 AM by  Unsubscribed
Here's the thing:

Taking another member's personally identifiable information without their permission (such as a photo) is a violation of the Terms of Use.

Also, creating a publically available Tribe that harasses other members is also a TOU violation. If you want to dish in private, that's different.

Please remove my photo and take my name out of this Tribe's title.

If anyone would like to have a rational discussion about community issues here, I'm all for it. I can't discuss the particulars of any specific member's account, but I can answer general questions about site policies.
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  • Re: Thanks for the invitation.

    Mon, August 2, 2004 - 2:32 PM
    This tribe isn't meant to harass, it's meant to criticize.

    "Rest assured, we're taking a long, hard look at the concept of identity on Tribe.net. This is designed to be a trusted network, and identity theft dilutes that trust. "

    This would indicate that there are still questions on the handling of Identity Issues on tribe. How is it fair to delete without warning when the standard hasn't been strictly defined? The TOU is still subject to interpretation and rationality can and has enter into specific cases. The definition of "Identity" in an online community is also highly debatable. You are less known for being an actual person, and more known for being a collection of posts. Depending on what these posts consist of determine an identity. Madame Gonzonga was a valid and unique identity. As far as any "Identity Theft," you should really be terming it as spoofing, and it really is not that serious. Its a childish IRC prank, if IRC has been able to handle it all these years, so should tribe. IRC really leaves it up to moderators anyway (which should be up to the moderator of a particular tribe in this case). Calling this "Identity Theft" implies that is criminal and malicious, where as spoofing most often falls under Parody which is intrinsically a different (and infact, celebrated) concept. You're putting the idea of "Identity" as far more solid then what Tribe's code allows for. You say "Remove MY name out of this Tribe's title" as if you can be the ONLY Walter EVER. How arrogant. Do you also delete other users named "Walter" as impersonators? It's entirely possible to make each username unique, in several ways with what the code allows for. It allows for more than one Walter, so you will just have to get used to the idea that you are not unique. I took the photo down, but even that really falls into the category of parody and commentary rather than simply taking identifiable information. It represents you in the same way the quote of yours i used in the beginning of this post. Finally, where do complain that there may have been an abuse by the person responsible for handling abuse cases? If you are personally connected with someone in an abuse case, you should ethically let someone else handle it. At the very least, you could give the perpetrator the benefit of the doubt and not outright delete them. It is nepotistic and a poor example of this site being very "social."
    Oh, another thing, did your fan site ask for your permission before using your image or do you just make exceptions when it is critical?
    • Re: Thanks for the invitation.

      Mon, August 2, 2004 - 2:57 PM
      I would be willing to examine and possibly even alter my current "tribe's-rep-sucks-and-lies-all-the-time-about-this-issue-to-cover-for-reprehensible-ethics" invented persona / attitude in exchange for clear answers on this matter.
    • Unsu...
       

      Re: Thanks for the invitation.

      Mon, August 2, 2004 - 3:22 PM
      If you believe that calling someone a puppy-killer is constructive criticism, I'd hate to see you fill out one of those "how was your meal?" cards at IHOP.

      There are open questions as to how we handle anything on Tribe.net, but the guidelines we created (which everyone indicated that they read and agreed to before joining our service) are meant to answer many of these questions.

      For our purposes, your photo and name are aspects of your identity, and the Tribes you create and listings you publish further define that identity. If someone creates a profile that mimics your online persona so closely that a reasonable person would be confused, we view that as identity theft.

      We can agree to disagree about whether pretending to be someone else online is a "childish prank." Luckily, it's not been a widespread problem on our service, but the members who've experienced it don't take it very lightly.

      For a handful of members, ID theft has been incredibly hurtful, and even left some people with a feeling of having been violated.

      I asked that my name be removed from this Tribe's title because it was clearly referring to me as an individual, not another member named "Walter." There are 59 other members named Walter, and each of them has the right to that name -- until they post my personally identifiable information in their profile.

      A fan Tribe and a distinct profile that appropriate someone's image are two different issues, but I recall hearing from the moderator of my Tribe the moment she created it, asking if she had my permission to proceed.

      We're not a very large company, so I don't have someone to whom I forward my personal abuse complaints. Instead, I rely on my judgement and experience gained as a community manager to decide on the best course of action.

      I'm rarely a target for abuse or harassment, however, so it's almost never come up.
      • Re: Thanks for the invitation.

        Tue, August 3, 2004 - 10:32 AM
        If i saw a waiter irationally kick out someone out of the restauraunt because of the company they kept, I would have words with them. I probably wouldnt eat there anymore either. So my choice of words were a bit harsh, but I really don't see it as more harsh than giving someone the boot without warning. Hence "Puppy-Killer." It's not meant to harass, it's commentary.
        I'm glad you refer to the TOU as guidelines though, it makes them seem more like pirate code. I know you can't reply to specific cases, but is it general tribe policy to slam someone out of tribe without letting them know that you will be arbitrarily enforcing this pirate code?
        Your posts and words are also aspects of your identity. Tribe message boards could not funtion without referencing other posts. Imagine trying to have a conversation where you need to conceal which post your talking about? (The threading seems to like this ethic at least). It would be ridiculous and impractical to attempt to communicate this way. Pictures (used appropriately) are no different. Posting an image referencing you with a comment on it, is like responding to a post using a person's quote. While the comments themselves are subject to various qualifiers as far as how justified they are, but thats how its supposed to work anyway, right? It is not impersonation at all.
        If users of this system are made so unhappy by this apparent impersonation problem, why does the system alloaw names which are not unique? In some ways tribe's code make it difficult to have a distinguished identity anyway. If you want to fix the problem, then do so, kicking people out for Tribes lack of foresight isn't fair.
        Why am i allowed to call you Walter when I respond and refer to you, but just not in the title? And is (censored by tribe) really fooling anyone?
        Aside from this incident, I have heard nothing but good things about Walter and his service skills. As far as anyone can tell, even if you could reverse this situation, it is not clear that you would do so. And if the deletion was in error, wouldn't it be fair to rebuild from what is known in the database to re-create this identity? I'm sure everyone would rather help then continue to complain, And I'll even change this tribe to say good things about Walter and aplologise.
      • Re: Thanks for the invitation.

        Fri, August 6, 2004 - 6:44 PM
        If you believe that calling someone a puppy-killer is constructive criticism, I'd hate to see you fill out one of those "how was your meal?" cards at IHOP.

        [If they are killing puppies, then it is not criticism at all. IT is merely the act of pointing out a fact. If the persons cited are ashamed of their status as a puppy killer, then the best thing they could do is stop killing puppies, and any pets, for that matter.]

        There are open questions as to how we handle anything on Tribe.net, but the guidelines we created (which everyone indicated that they read and agreed to before joining our service) are meant to answer many of these questions.

        [No one really has the time to read that bullshit. I never read a terms of agreement thing in my life. No one does. Admit it, you put it there to legally cover your ass from getting sued for some stupid thing. I am not going to go out of my way to click some boring text page and then read it. If you want me to click the thing, don't mark it "terms of agreement." Mark it "Titties" or "crotch shot gallery." Then I will click on it. I will be sorely disappointed if I don't see any vertical smiles or sweater meats on the page, but I will click on it. IF you do happen to have some strategically placed jpegs of bearded clams, or milk bags on the page, then I just might read the first line of your terms. Then I will discover it is not a story about facials and scatology. I will promptly stop reading. You see, the girl who put up a picture of her camel toe has the right idea. I read her thing. You cannot expect thinking people to read this terms of agreement shit.]

        For our purposes, your photo and name are aspects of your identity, and the Tribes you create and listings you publish further define that identity.

        [IF anyone impersonates stanislaw diaz, their head will be cut off and rolled off the top of a golden ziggurat]

        If someone creates a profile that mimics your online persona so closely that a reasonable person would be confused, we view that as identity theft.

        [So this is not in accordinance with legal definitions. IT is your own paltry system of defining things. Then I have a quote for you from Lewis Carroll's seminal work "alice's adventures in wonderland". IT was spoken by Humpty DUmpty. He says, "when I use a word, it means what I choose it to mean. Nothing more." I believe, like Humpty, if you are choosing to create a tower of babel here. You too may have a big fall.]

        We can agree to disagree about whether pretending to be someone else online is a "childish prank." Luckily, it's not been a widespread problem on our service, but the members who've experienced it don't take it very lightly.

        [Then they are the 1% of people who read the terms. Difficult customers are not the ones worth pleasing. In the words of the dictators, "fuck 'em if they can't take a joke." Real life doesn't censor people the way internet dorks do when they get the god-like shelter of "webmaster." This whole controversy seems distinctly american. Americans tend to value their identity more than most. This is a joke. IT's all about rep rather than cred. People should stop taking themselves seriously. They are not unique.]

        For a handful of members, ID theft has been incredibly hurtful, and even left some people with a feeling of having been violated.

        [Then they should conduct all business face to face. Or you should make a system that is coded to prevent this from happening. That makes you look far less like an anus than censoring people and deleting posts from the record. Let your site stand as an experiment and a record, not revisionist history.]

        I asked that my name be removed from this Tribe's title because it was clearly referring to me as an individual, not another member named "Walter." There are 59 other members named Walter, and each of them has the right to that name -- until they post my personally identifiable information in their profile.

        [Ever heard of synchronicity? I suggest you watch the movie "Magnolia." Strange things can happen. Maybe there are other people named walter who share your poor attitude. IT is not unthinkable.]

        A fan Tribe and a distinct profile that appropriate someone's image are two different issues, but I recall hearing from the moderator of my Tribe the moment she created it, asking if she had my permission to proceed.

        [Then she was motivated by fear and that fear should be exploited until she either loses the fear or succumbs to Darwin's theory of natural selection!]

        We're not a very large company, so I don't have someone to whom I forward my personal abuse complaints.

        [I will volunteer for the job. My email is spinabifeda@yahoo.com]

        Instead, I rely on my judgement and experience gained as a community manager to decide on the best course of action.

        [Since I offered, you no longer need to.]

        I'm rarely a target for abuse or harassment, however, so it's almost never come up.

        [People take mercy on people named Walter. THank your parents.]
  • Unsu...
     

    Re: Thanks for the invitation.

    Mon, August 2, 2004 - 3:13 PM
    i would like to thank walter for taking the time to sub into this tribe and correct it - even though he hasn't managed to find the time to answer my request to get the moderatorship of my old private tribe back, or to explain how a tribe can get a new moderator if the original moderator is unsubbed, or is the tribe doomed to function forever without one?

    thanks walter!
    • Unsu...
       

      Re: Thanks for the invitation.

      Mon, August 2, 2004 - 3:24 PM
      No problem. It generally takes at least 24 hours to respond to a help request, longer for those received over the weekend. I'll address your questions as soon as time permits.

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